Every authentic church is built on Christ and Christ alone. Nothing else will do. But that’s not the only thing that makes a church a real church. If we are founded on Jesus, then it would make sense that we would be committed to the kinds of things to which He was committed. Well, there was one thing He was committed to above just about everything else: Getting people into a right relationship with God. Churches who are authentic churches share this passionate commitment. In this second part of our series, Authentic Church, we are talking about this commitment, why it’s there, and what it might look like.
A Vital Ministry
The U.S. Presidency is an incredibly powerful position. For starters, the President is the commander and chief of the most powerful military force the world has ever seen, and it’s not close. Then there’s the power to veto or sign legislation. That means the President gives the final thumbs up or thumbs down on the laws that govern our nation. And because I know there are constitutional scholars somewhere whose ears are tingling, yes, Congress can override a Presidential veto, and the Supreme Court can declare a particular law unconstitutional, but historically speaking that hasn’t happened very often when a President has signed or refused to sign a particular bill, turning it into a law. A bill is just a bill until it is signed by the President. That’s a lot of power.
But the President has even more power than that. The President is also tasked with staffing a huge number of the most highly consequential government positions. These are the people who do the kind of policy work that can set the country headed off in the direction the President wants it to go almost regardless of what Congress says or does. Well, of all of these different positions the President is tasked with filling so the government can run efficiently and well (stop rolling your eyes), most of these require someone in them who really knows their stuff and who will be able to lead effectively. One of these positions is the post of ambassador to various foreign nations where we have embassies. And while some ambassadorships are fairly politically insignificant and are often given to big donors as political favors, some of them rank among the most significant ones we have in terms of our foreign policy establishment. Ambassadors are pretty important people when it comes to how we get along with our neighbors both near and far. They are tasked with representing the interests of the United States in the foreign nations where they reside. When that ambassador speaks on official matters, it is as if the President himself has spoken. Within the context of their nation of service, their job is to make sure that the interests of this nation are achieved.
Well, the church is the body of Christ. But Jesus isn’t here physically anymore. He left the scene in that sense 40 days after His resurrection from the dead. But He is here spiritually and personally through the lives of His followers. Because He is not here physically, though, and because we are representing His interests as His body on earth, that makes us His ambassadors. An authentic church takes this role seriously.
This morning finds us in the second part of our new teaching series, Authentic Church. For the next few weeks and in conjunction with our Sunday school Bible study series, we are talking about what it is that makes a church an authentic church. The reason we are doing this is that there are all kinds of groups out there claiming to be churches. It is worthwhile to know before getting attached to this one or any of them whether or not we are dealing with an actual church or a social club or community service organization that does some religious activities on the side. Sometimes it can seem hard to tell the difference between one and the other. And yet when we survey the New Testament writings, it becomes clear that there are a few things that are so fundamentally a part of who God designed the church to be that we can say without these things, while you may have a bunch of people who love each other and their communities and even who share similar religious beliefs, you don’t have a church.
We started things off last week by talking about the church’s foundation with the guidance of the apostle Peter. It was his confession of Jesus’ divine identity that Jesus Himself said was going to be the bedrock of His gathering of people called out for the purposes of advancing God’s kingdom, that is, His church. The church is built on the foundation of Jesus. Everything in the church centers on Jesus. Because He is the center of everything we are and everything we do (when we are getting things right), that means we are the primary representatives of His interests on earth. We are His ambassadors. This, though, just raises an important question that I would like to explore with you as we continue our series this morning: What is Jesus’ primary interest?
Well, through the example of Jesus’ own life and ministry, His sacrificial death and resurrection, and His final command as recorded at the end of Matthew’s Gospel, it is as clear as it could be that Jesus’ primary interest was seeing people get into a right relationship with God. Make the connection. If that’s Jesus’ primary interest, then if we are indeed to be His ambassadors on earth, there would seem to be a pretty good case to be made that it should be our primary interest as well. To put that a bit more directly, our primary interest as a church should be getting people into a right relationship with God in Christ. Or perhaps to put that even more simply: Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. This is something authentic churches do.
The two words that best capture this emphasis are evangelism and discipleship. You’d be hard pressed to find two more terrifying or confusing words for followers of Jesus today. When the topic of evangelism comes up we normally head for the hills or else hunker down to endure the guilt trip for not being a “good Christian” we know is coming. And when it comes to discipleship, most of us don’t honestly even really know what that means. These ideas, though, are not nearly as scary as they sound. They’re just big words for telling people about Jesus and helping them to grow in a relationship with Him. In other words, they are simply part of our being His ambassadors on earth. Which is the job of every authentic church. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
Well, while there are several places in the Scriptures that address these two issues, something the apostle Paul wrote in his second letter to the believers in the ancient Greek city of Corinth speaks to the matter at hand in a way that really simplifies just what exactly it is we are to be doing here. If you have a copy of the Scriptures handy this morning, find your way over to 2 Corinthians 5 with me so we can take a look at this together.
If Paul’s first letter to the Corinthian believers is a hammer, this one is more of a feather. That doesn’t mean Paul’s words here aren’t as important or as challenging as what he writes in the first letter. Rather, that just means that having addressed most of the really challenging issues the church there was facing, Paul was able to focus on somewhat gentler themes such as the hope and help of the Gospel. In 2 Corinthians 5, the apostle starts with a reflection on the hope we have in a life after this one is over. This is a faith-based hope, make no mistake about it, but it is a faith rooted in the historical fact of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, and so it is an entirely reasonable faith. If Jesus rose from the dead, demonstrating conclusively that there is life after this one, then we can indeed have hope in that new life. But this life isn’t for everybody. It’s only for those who are willing to put their faith in Him. Everyone else will face the great accounting coming at the end of history on their own. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:10: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may be repaid for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”
This kind of news is not something that we should keep to ourselves. In fact, it is something we should actively try to persuade others regarding its truthfulness. If there really is a life after this one, but if that life really is only for those who are willing to embrace it, and if it is the judgment of God mitigated only by our faith in Christ that determines who gets access to that life and who doesn’t, then the world needs to know about this. Thus v. 11: “Therefore, since we know the fear of the Lord, we try to persuade people.” And again in v. 14: “For the love of Christ compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: If one died for all, then all died. And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.”
This is pretty weighty stuff, and it speaks right to this job we have as followers of Jesus. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. In the next several verses, Paul goes on to talk more about this job and just what it means. Take a look at this with me starting in v. 16: “From now on, then, we do not know anyone from a worldly perspective. Even if we have known Christ from a worldly perspective, yet now we no longer know him in this way.” This is one of those verses that makes you go, “Huh?” when you first read it. All Paul is talking about here, though, is that if Jesus really did rise from the dead, and if we really do have this hope in a life after this one, that knowledge should frame out our thinking on the people around us. We don’t look at anyone as “merely” a person. We look at them as either someone who has embraced the life of Christ and is thus a brother or sister in the broader family of faith, or else as someone who has not yet done so and is therefore someone we should pursue with love and gentle persuasion in order to help them see that and why embracing the offer of life in Jesus is something worth their time. In other words, we are to act as ambassadors of God’s kingdom, following His command to invite as many people to be a part of it as we possibly can. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
The next thing Paul says helps to highlight why this new way of thinking is so important. When someone is in Christ, she is not the same person as she was before. Because of that, we can’t think about her in the same way anymore. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!”
This idea of a person being a new creation in Christ reminds us that this God who is making us new now is the same God who created the world and everything in it in the first place. He is a creator God. Creating new things is what He does. When we were stuck in our old ways because of sin, He initiated the process of our being able to be right with Him in Christ. Look at v. 18 now: “Everything is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.” Paul here is talking about the work God does in our lives, not outlining some new ministry venture we are supposed to be taking on. That’s what he goes on to explain next: “That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their tresspasses against them…” Now, there’s a whole lot of theological assumptions built into this idea, but riding on those for a second, don’t miss how amazing this first part of v. 19 is. God was looking to make His relationship with every single person in the world right again. That’s why He sent Jesus. Through Jesus, God counts our tresspasses (which is just a fancy word for sin) against Jesus, not us. That’s ridiculously unfair, but it does satisfy God’s justice. Jesus laid down His life to pay that price so we don’t have to. These are pretty foundational Gospel truths here.
The second part of v. 19 now is where things really start to get interesting for us. God did all of this reconciliation work on our behalf in Christ, “and he has committed the message of reconciliation to us.” That is, He did the ministry, and He gave us the message. The work is all His, but the PR work is for us to do. We are the ones who are supposed to tell everybody else what He did. Or, to put that as we already have, our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
And so what does this make us? It makes us ambassadors just like we have been saying. Stay with me in the text here: “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us.” Do you feel the weight of that verse? Put things together here and you will if you don’t already. God was (and is) looking to make right His relationship with everyone. He didn’t have to do this since He wasn’t the one to break the relationship in the first place, but He’s just that kind of God. This work was accomplished through Jesus. Through Jesus, anyone and everyone can be in a right relationship with Him. To borrow a line from the MercyMe song, that’s the best news ever. And how does God plan to get this news out to the masses so they can hear it and respond? “God is making his appeal through us.” He’s doing it through you and me. He’s doing it through His church. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. Authentic churches are marked by their giving great priority to helping people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
Now, is God limited to us? Nope. Not at all. But He consistently uses us. Even when the work doesn’t start with us, He still uses us. I heard the story the other day about a Muslim woman in Egypt who did not know any Christians and had never heard a Gospel. One day she had a dream in which she went on a walk with Jesus and another man. When she asked Jesus if He would help her learn more about Him, He told her that it wasn’t time for that yet, but that she needed to talk to the man walking with them. The trouble was, she had never seen this man before in her life. A few days later, she was walking through the local market when suddenly she saw the very man from her dream. She rushed over to him and told him he was supposed to tell her about Jesus which caught him rather dramatically by surprise. But as it turns out, the man was a missionary. He told her that he had had a dream in which Jesus told him he needed to go to the market that day because a woman was going to ask him to tell her more about Him. That work didn’t start with this missionary, but God made His ultimate appeal through him.
God consistently does His work through us. As a result, “We plead on Christ’s behalf: ‘Be reconciled to God.’” We do everything we can to help the people around us who don’t yet know the life in Christ come to know and understand the truth: That God loves them so much He was willing to lay down His only Son’s life so that if they are only willing to put their trust in Him, they can be made right with Him and enjoy eternal life when this one is over. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. We do this because “He made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” And this idea of our becoming the righteousness of God doesn’t just mean we become right with God in Jesus. We become the righteousness of God. That is, we become the means by which other people can get and grow in a right relationship with Him. This doesn’t mean we save anybody, but rather that we point them to the one who can save them. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
Right at the end of the passage here, which actually gets grouped with the next chapter, Paul does something interesting. He’s spent a whole bunch of time now telling these believers about what is arguably their primary job as followers of Jesus. They were to be God’s ambassadors, persuading people to enter into His kingdom from out of the kingdom of the world through the life-saving work of Jesus on the cross. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. Here at the end, though, Paul comes back around to talk to his audience about themselves. Don’t miss this. “Working together with him, we also appeal to you.” Got that? Again, he’s talking to his audience directly and through them to us. “Don’t receive the grace of God in vain.” Paul continues in v. 2: “For he says: ‘At an acceptable time I listened to you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.’ See, now is the acceptable time; now is the day of salvation!”
How could you receive the grace of God in vain? By receiving it and then not living in light of it. By professing to follow Jesus and then not actually follow Him. By signing up to be part of the kingdom of God, and then not doing the work of His kingdom, but instead of some other kingdom which is really nothing more than one variation or another of the kingdom of this world. We receive the grace of God in vain when we look at people through a worldly lens rather than heavenly one. And one of the ways this plays out is that we consider them as unreachable in their unbelief and leave them there rather than doing everything we can—pleading with them, Paul said—to embrace the life that is truly life. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
Wait, wait, wait! So, does this mean that if we don’t actively tell everyone around us about Jesus then we’re not really saved? Not even close. That would be untrue. It does mean, though, that for a church to ignore the fundamental tasks of evangelism and discipleship is a mark of inauthenticity. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. There are a lot of other things the church does and should do. But there aren’t any that are more important than that. If we are going to be an authentic church, then we have to get that much right.
Okay, so how do we do it? Let’s start with the “grow” part of our job, and then we’ll work backwards from there. Growing happens in a few different ways. It starts with our own commitment to be growing ourselves. I’ve been talking about this idea a lot lately, and I’m going to set it before you again this morning. There are three primary things you need to be doing if you actually want to grow in your faith. If you’re not really interested in that, then you don’t have to worry about this. If that is of interest, you should probably write these down. You need to be engaging regularly and intentionally with God through the Scriptures. You need to be engaging regularly and intentionally with God through prayer. And you need to be engaging regularly and intentionally with God through the church. If you do those three things consistently, you will grow. If you don’t, you won’t. It really is that simple.
Your growth, though, is never just for you as far as God is concerned. You need to be pouring that growth into someone else. After all, our job is to help people—that is, people other than us—get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. For some of you, you are in a place where you need to be actively pouring from your cup into someone else’s cup. I can help talk you through what that looks like when you are ready to do it. For now, you need to be praying very specifically for God to put someone on your heart and mind who should be this person for you. This also happens in larger groups, but smaller than this gathering. That means all of us need to be in a smaller learning group on a regular and consistent basis. Many of you are already there, but some of you need to finally take that leap. Others of you are already there, but you really need to be leading your own group. I want you to be praying whether God is calling you to this important work. I can tell you that for some of you He is. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus.
As for that getting part, you need to be sharing your faith with somebody who doesn’t share it. For many of you, you don’t even have to leave your house to do this. Prayerfully seek out ways to have spiritual conversations with that person in your house who doesn’t have a relationship with Jesus. You don’t have to be pushy. You definitely don’t need to be rude or demeaning. But you should be doing this when the opportunity arises. For others of you, this might mean meeting your neighbors. There’s a decent chance they don’t know Jesus and they need to. It could be that your person is someone at work. You need to be sharing the Gospel at work. This has to be done carefully and respectfully, but having those spiritual conversations can literally make an eternal, life or death difference in another person’s life. After all, you are an ambassador of a kingdom that is not of this world, and your King has commanded you to make disciples of everyone in order to grow His kingdom. In coming months, we will talk through some specific ways to do this in order to help you feel more equipped for the task God has called you to as a member of His kingdom. Our job is to help people get and grow in a right relationship with God through Jesus. Getting that right is part of what makes us an authentic church.
The Nexus 
Sunday school run by an evangelist. Indoctrination 101
I actually winced. My sympathy for the children.
Are these actual sermons you read out in church or just pieces for your blog?
LikeLike
Preached word for word from the stage every Sunday. I slow down a little bit from my recording speed, but otherwise it’s about the same minus the visuals.
You stick with indoctrination, I say truth. Either way, this kind of stuff is why Christians tend to be so stuck on sharing in spite of the blowback they get for it.
LikeLike
If I had to sit through this I would find a way to snore on purpose.
LikeLike
You’d be surprised just how much noise I’ve learned to tolerate from the stage while I preach ;~)
LikeLike
In that case oerhaps you should consider your congregation rather than loving the sound of your own voice?
LikeLike
Are you kidding? I hate the sound of my own voice. They pay me to preach every week. That still baffles me.
LikeLike
I’m pretty honored that I warranted a break from the garden just to read my sermon :~) You guys are heading in the direction of winter down there, yes? Do you have winter? No snow, I assume, but cooler at least? What are your seasons down there anyway?
LikeLike
It’s lunchtime….
I skip scanned it.
Seasons are the same as everywhere Spring, summer, autumn, winter.
We occasionally get snow.
Do you read these out to your church?
I would be surprised if at least half the congregation doesn’t nod off, it is so long.
At Sunday Indoctrination Classes how do deal with pertinant questions from young children?
If they ask about Noah and Moses for example do you tell the truth or routinely dish out the usual evangelical apologetic bs? You know … Lie?
LikeLike
I guess it is lunchtime there already. I have a hard time keeping up with how far ahead of us you are timewise.
Believe it or not, my sermons typically run shorter than average as far as sermon lengths go. My preaching style is weird compared with most preachers. I preach from a full manuscript each week. In preaching class in seminary they tried to teach us to preach without notes, but my brain doesn’t work like that. I don’t think in outlines, I think in sentences and paragraphs. When I write something, it’s because I want to say it that way. I don’t want to risk saying something the wrong way or forgetting something. Other guys have the ability to preach with basically nothing in front of them except a Bible and maybe a few notes. I need the full manuscript. But, I write like I talk so I can get away with it. I’m also a little more animated than just standing in front of them reading the words off the page. I manage to deliver in such a way that most of the crowd assumes I have the whole thing memorized each week. While I can still do that when I need to, I don’t typically have enough time to devote to full memorization in a given week. That all being said, there are one or two I can usually count on nodding off in a given week. That’s part of why the choir sits down before I preach, so they aren’t nodding off where everyone in the room can see them. I didn’t make that decision, though. Their family members encouraged that change. I’m pretty hard to offend by stuff like that. I’m pretty hard to offend generally, but that’s part of the territory of this job. If you’re easy to offend in this line of work, you won’t last very long.
Typically, when kids ask hard questions in Sunday school, they get directed my way. I set the truth before them as thoroughly as I can. Of course, you’d call that lying, but we don’t see the matter the same way. I teach an adult class on Sunday mornings and lead the adult Bible study on Wednesday nights. Wednesday nights are particularly fun for me. I bring notes to teach from (okay, it’s basically a manuscript, but written in note form), but I encourage them to ask whatever questions they have about the text along the way, and we’ll jam on those as long as we need to. Nothing is off the table. Most are too nervous to ask questions in front of the whole group, but a handful do. They’re usually pretty good questions too, but generally from the standpoint of believing the text, but wanting to understand it more fully. You’d be welcome in the group if you came.
LikeLike
As you have avoided a direct answer to my question I presume you tell them Moses wrote the Pentateuch and Yahweh probably did flood the entire earth because humans were sinners and Yahweh decided to wipe them out.
Close enough?
LikeLike
I didn’t think you were looking for something quite that specific. We’ve talked at length about my positions on those questions. I don’t give them less than that. For what it’s worth, the kind of questions you’re probably thinking about I find don’t start getting asked until kids are a fair bit older and are doing more critical thinking on their own than young children are likely to do.
As far as Cliff’s Notes versions of what my answers might be to those questions, those are all points I would cover. But there would likely be a fair bit more theological context setting involved.
LikeLike
Always prefer the straightforward answers when religion is involved.
I try to discourage the tendency of the interlocuter wandering off and returning with answers that are somewhat fluffy.
Why do you not teach the smaller kids about eternal separation and /or eternal damnation fir rejecting your god, Yahweh?
Also, how is an older child encouraged to, or even expected to exercise genuine critical thought when they have very likely already succumbed to a certain amount of indoctrination regarding the Bible – Adam and Eve and Original Sin, Noah and his ark, Moses / the Exodus and Conquest narratives?
LikeLike
I would counsel teaching age-appropriate topics at age-appropriate times. Talking with young kids about death is something that should be handled very carefully and with great emotional sensitivity.
Giving kids a detailed and thorough presentation on the doctrine of Hell would be no better for them than offering them a detailed presentation on the secular understanding of death. “Hey kids, Daddy is going to die someday and you’ll never see him again. Cheers!”
And older kids exercise more critical thought because that’s how their brains develop. That’s normal and healthy. Now, do some churches try to squelch this natural (and healthy) developmental trend? Unfortunately yes, far too often, and to their shame. The fallout from such nonsense is ugly and often shows itself on the deconversion blogs you’ve spent so much time reading. I think they’re wrong to do that. I’d much rather put the best arguments before kids (young teens) who are ready to think through them (and I’d rather err on the side of younger than older), and let them make their own decisions.
LikeLike
Best arguments?
Is this because you cannot present any evidence?
Again, how on earth are older children able to exercise genuine critical thinking when such potential skills have been all but stunted by the subtle and oft times not so subtle indoctrination they have almost certainly succumbed to in their formative years?
You criticise the fallout from teaching about Hell but you arecan evangelist and teach children they are born sinners and unless they acknowledge this supposed fact and acknowledge that Jesus is their only path to salvation they will spend eternity in Hell.
No matter how you slice it this is tantamount to child abuse.
LikeLike
If you frame the issue out as badly and as negatively as you customarily do, it could come across like that, yes. Too many churches and pastors have done just that. That’s wrong. I think there’s a better way to frame it out that’s just as honest. Would you be okay telling kids that according to a secular worldview, there’s no purpose to their lives beyond what they can make up for themselves and that when they die it’ll likely all go away and they won’t matter such that nothing they do in this life really has any meaning anyway? That seems pretty abusive to me. I guess it’s a matter of perspective…
LikeLike
See, you deflected and focussed on secularism.
Are you afraid to deal with the truth here?
Do you convey to children, in some fashion, that they are born sinners and must seek salvation from Jesus by confessing they are sinners in order to avoid spending eternity separated from Yahweh / and or going to Hell?
A simple straightforward answer would be appreciated.
LikeLike
In some fashion, yes. But if we’re going to talk about the flaws of Christian doctrine, let’s examine both worldviews fairly.
LikeLike
No, you will not behave like a slippery eel.
We can talk about secular humanism later.
So you have admitted you teach kids they are sinners and if they don’t repent etc will spend eternity in Hell based on no evidence whatsoever!
Now, explain to me how this is not child abuse?
LikeLike
I do so on the basis of doctrines revealed over the pages of the Scriptures which I take to be true and reliable on a whole range of grounds, some rooted in evidence, others rooted in other things. Teaching kids things that are true is never child abuse unless it is done in an abusive way. Then the problem is not with the material being taught, but with the one doing the teaching.
LikeLike
You have no evidence whatsoever for these outrageous claims.
In fact the HGP rubbishes all notion of original sin thus negating any need to be saved from anything.
Ergo, indoctrinating children with the doctrine of Hell is nothing but child abuse.
LikeLike
The HGP says nothing at all about sin. Science doesn’t comment on theological questions at all. Those are two different disciplines. And, yes, you can keep making that charge, but it’s not sounding any more reasonable by repetition. It just sounds like you understand precious little beyond caricatures of Christian theology. And, since you reject the idea of God in the first place, none of it is going to make any sense you to anyway. That’s a worldview issue, though, not an evidentiary one.
LikeLike
The HGP refutes any notion of an original couple as per the Bible tale.
Therefore, no Adam and Eve, no ridiculous Garden of Eden tale and no original sin.
That is most definitely an evidentiary issue.
Seriously, how difficult is that to grasp?
So preaching Original Sin to kids and the need for salvation is a falsehood and thus, child abuse.
I am curious how you can look your own kids in the eye and lie to them on this subject without flinching?
LikeLike
Because I don’t lie to them. You think I lie to them. That’s different.
Do you tell your own kids their lives are meaningless and that nothing they do, not a single cake they decorate, will ever actually matter beyond what they make up for themselves? Or (assuming on your worldview) do you lie to them and tell them it all matters and that they are making a real difference in the lives of the people they interact with?
See how it works? When you frame somebody else’s view in the worst possible light, it can come off looking pretty terrible even if the person holding it claims good reasons for thinking it to be true.
So forget about original sin. You just need eyes to see that people are stuck on stupid and choose to do the wrong thing way more often than the right thing. The evidence of sin or whatever you want to call it is all over the place. And don’t use a Christian standard. Use an entirely secular one. People still don’t keep it.
The Christian worldview offers an explanation for why the world is broken and suggests a solution. No atheistic worldview (;-)) can offer something similar. Evidence or not, people are drawn to the more competing and hopeful worldview. That’s why people keep turning toward religion in general and Christianity in particular. There’s much more than just a compelling worldview, of course, but there’s at least that.
LikeLike
Framing hell in the worst possible light?
LikeLike
I once accidentally sent a post live because I was typing on my laptop and my hand bumped the mouse pad when the cursor happened to be right on the “publish” button. You have to click it twice to go live and I managed to do that. I had to immediately delete the post and paste and apology on the actual one when it went live. I understand fat fingers. Believe me. I’ll respond to the fuller comment later. I’ve got to get the sermon written for Sunday. People need a good naptime, and I can’t leave them disappointed ;~)
LikeLike
I was already nodding off just reading the mere mention of the word sermon.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oops pressed send. Fat fingers, small. Keyboard ..let me start again
Framing Hell in the worst possible light? 🤣
There is a good light to frame Hell? Oh pray, do tell!
Jolly tea parties and dress up with Lucifer?
Original Sin is part of the bedrock of the entire drivel of Christisn doctrine.
As you consider you are not lying what is the other option? Well, not lying, or…. telling the truth. I am going to ignore wilfull ignorance for now as I’m sure as a professional you would consider that an insult.
So you are either telling the truth( about Hell) or your are lying.
Correct me as we go along.
You are an evangelist, so you have a more literal – leaning view. Not YEC but you do accept biblical innerancy a given in it’s original intended form.
You’ve already expressed your view of Adam and Eve and good old Noah and his big wooden boat
We haven’t discussed the Exodus in too much detail but I’ll bet you believe the tale is historical and Moses a real historical figure etc.
So, Hell.
There is no evidence of Hell, in whichever form you prefer to subscribe to, and certainly not the Dante type version we all know so well, which, sadly, has become part and parcel of our culture and whether you like it or not is also part and parcel of Christian culture, and in some cases Christian belief, which is indoctrinated into children. And I’m damn sure your kids are aware as well.
That is most definitely child abuse.
And you can whine on about caricature but that image of eternal torment in the fires of Hell is right there embedded in our collective psyche.
I know it’s rubbish, however, a great many Christians consider it very real indeed.
Furthermore, the generally accepted view is Yahweh is all-loving, just and all- merciful and it is the individual who CHOOSES to go to hell by rejecting this loving God. Just so they can rush of and sin… All that carnal stuff, right?
And remember, the doors of Hell are locked from the inside, are they not?
Ostensibly, then, if your kids reject Yahweh as their savior… because they are sinners, then you consider they are deserving of eternal separation, damnation in Hell.
Do you deny this is ostensibly what you preach/teach?
That you likely preach/teach this as gospel ( sic) is sick and as there is no evidence of Hell no matter which version, then yes, this is child abuse.
As the character Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish and talked about Gehenna (Hell does not feature in Jewish belief) it makes the made-up doctrine Christians teach even more vile and those that preach it culpable.
So yes, this is considered lying.
Are you going to object and claim ignorance now?
LikeLike
If someone were to reject the reliability of the Scriptures and examine them solely through that secular, disbelieving lens, then, yes, you’ve got it about right.
Hell is a doctrinal belief that comes out of the New Testament. I’m not exactly sure what kind of evidence you have in mind for its existence. It’s an inherently supernatural concept for which there’s not going to be empirical evidence someone could point to.
My sermon on Hell from last fall would be a pretty good place to start for a proper Biblical framing of the doctrine. It’s a hard doctrine and not one worth relishing. But if the other parts of an orthodox Christian theology are right and true, then it is a just doctrine. If the other parts aren’t right, then it’s garbage. Given that you reject the other parts, Hell sounds like so much garbage to you. I get that. If you don’t believe God, very little of Christian doctrine is going to make any sense or sound at all appealing.
On the Dante version of Hell that has so influenced our modern understanding of the concept, I agree with you that it really is too bad that has become the picture everyone calls to mind. It’s not a picture I ever teach when I talked about it with anyone because I don’t think it’s at all Biblical. I try do my small part to offer up a more correct understanding, but there’s a whole lot of cultural thinking to correct there, so I don’t expect to accomplish very much.
I’m not sure what ignorance I would claim here. I won’t accept the charge of lying, though, because you’re simply not correct on the matter.
I’m still waiting to hear if you tell your own kids the truth about atheism and its inability to furnish the means for living an objectively meaningful life, or if you make up something that sounds better so they don’t feel like nothing they do ultimately matters.
LikeLike
Hell does not derive from the New Testament.
Perhaps it can be claimed the idea derived from the Bible, but Gehenna is not the Hell embraced by Christian doctrine. This was developed over the course of time.
As already pointed out, the character Jesus was a Jew.
The Christian idea of Hell does not feature in Jewish religion/ thought/reckoning thus the notion of eternal torment etc would have been anathema.
Again, as you did not address the doctrine in any meaningful sense I can only conclude that as an evangelical Christian you subscribe to the notion of eternal damnation/torment / separation, and while you may try to sugar coat it in some fashion you nonetheless insist that your own children, for example, are born sinners, definitely need to confess and seek salvation via the spilled blood of the character Jesus of Nazareth. If they reject him as their god and savior you make them aware that it is their choice but they will be going to Hell for eternity.
Anyway you cut it, that is utterly disgusting and by any metric is child abuse.
The truth of atheism?
Of course I have told them.
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods.
My children don’t need gods to live an objective meaningful life. What a silly thing to write.
LikeLike
Objective meaning on atheism? Where do you get your standard for that?
Hell does derive from the New Testament. It didn’t come from anywhere else. Jesus’ comments using the Valley of Hinnom as an illustrative tool are not the sum total of the picture of Hell presented in the New Testament.
I pointed you to where I do address the doctrine meaningfully. You are welcome to go and read that. Any conclusions you draw otherwise about my beliefs will be unfounded. And it’s only child abuse by the metric you use. By the metric I use, and which a majority of the world at least professes to use, it is the most loving thing I could possibly teach them.
LikeLike
What standard do you think I need besides my own abilty to discern right from wrong?
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. Funny, I could swear I’ve told you this before?
Hell: Nope. Not from the Bible. The notion /idea was from the Bible but the early church told and made their own unique brand of bullshit.
Once again, the character Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. Your Christian Hell would have been anathema to him.
Yes, I am aware of the other supposed Hell-ish references, thank you. As you are presumably familiar with the Bible I thought it unnecessary to list them.
I read your post on Hell. You did not address the core issues in the manner I have outlined here.
That you consider it to be the most loving thing you could teach them is, quite frankly, sick/ deranged beyond belief.
And the term is indoctrinate them as there is no evidence to support such a revolting belief.
But just in case I have grossly misunderstood your position let’s have a yes/ no quiz.
1. Do you ostensibly teach your children that rejection of Jesus as their saviour could/ will result in them spending eternity separated from Yahweh / spending eternity in Hell?
Yes or No?
2. Do you fervently believe we are all born in sin and that to reject your god means we actively choose Hell?
Yes or No?
LikeLike
Because you are so limited by your chosen frame of reference, we’re really not going to get anywhere here.
The answers are yes and yes to your questions, but we’ve already talked about that.
Most of the Christian doctrine of Hell is rooted in the things Jesus said about it. I’m not sure if you simply don’t understand this or are merely refusing to accept it. Either way, with your persistent objections noted, you aren’t correct on that matter.
How do you know right is right and wrong is wrong beyond what you subjectively believe them to be?
LikeLike
Limited frame of reference are weasle words.
Again, Jesus was a Jew. The motion of the Christian Hell would have been anathema to him.
As you pointed out, the Christisn idea of Hell is a doctrine. In other words, they invented it.
You will damn your own children to Hell if they decide what you have indoctrinated them is nothing but bullshit.
I hope for your sake that when they do learn what they have been told are simply lies they are able to forgive you, because, believe me, you will need their forgiveness.
How do YOU know right from wrong?
Because Yahweh tells you?
LikeLike
That was clear from me. Now let’s go back to you 😉
LikeLike
When I say “best arguments,” by the way, I’m including the various evidences for and apparently against (although, admittedly, you might quibble with where I put the adverb there).
LikeLike
Ark one thing I’ve always wondered about atheism. Have you ever considered that you’re wrong? Are you 100% certain there is no God? If there’s even .1 % chance that you’re wrong, doesn’t that scare you? You mention about J’s kids forgiving him when they learn it’s all a farce. My bigger worry if I were you is condemning your children to Hell if you’re wrong. Feel free to share the last time you were 100 % sure about something only for it came back and bit you in the rear. If you don’t want to share those stories I can share mine.
LikeLike
Missed this Thomas. Apologies
I simply lack belief in gods because no evidence has ever been presented to demonstrate the veracity of such claims.
LikeLike